From: Chris Beckett - Personal capacity <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 03:13:05 -0500 Doesn't Fred's argument presuppose that outsourcing to a commercial publisher, by definition, requires adoption of a subscription model. I am not sure that this is the case. With increasing numbers of commercial publishers offering an Open Access publishing model, surely to suggest it does is to conflate two issues, namely the legal status of the publisher and the business models by which it delivers content. If for instance a society publisher outsourced to BioMedCentral or Hindawi, to name just two of the increasing number of commercial Open Access publishers, they would be outsourcing to a commercial publisher whose products and services are all OA based as far as I am aware, i.e. are free at the point of use and don't charge subscriptions. Conversely, if they outsourced to OUP or CUP on a conventional basis, they would be outsourcing to a not-for-profit publisher whose product, in this example, would be subscription based. I think there are two separate questions here. Firstly does a society think it can make more money, reach more readers, get better citations, or whatever - essentially "publish better" by undertaking the operation of publishing itself, or by outsourcing to another publishing organisation? (Which of these metrics or combination of metrics are most relevant to the society will presumably vary according to its specific mission and the goals for the journal(s) concerned). Secondly, when a decision has been made to outsource, what business model is most appropriate for the society concerned (given its goals for the journal and overall mission): Subscription based, Open Access, hybrid, advertising based or some other model that has yet to be invented. As long as the society's goals are met in respect of the second question surely the organisation selected might be a for-profit (such as Elsevier, Wiley, Taylor and Francis, BMC, Hindawi, Springer, and many others,) entity offering some or all of the business models mentioned or it may be a not-for-profit publisher such as OUP, CUP, or other society publisher. I am not sure conflating the business model question with the legal status of the publisher (essentially whether or not it pays tax on its surplus or profit) is entirely helpful. What have I missed? Chris Beckett