From: Sally Morris <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:27:18 +0000 Yes, Joe has misunderstood my original message as well. I'm not arguing that we can go back to the situation of pre-electronic days - but I am arguing that it ought to be possible to make it simpler and thus less costly for all concerned. Yet, as Anthony points out, despite the efforts of those of us who have tried to streamline and simplify the process, there are some (on both sides) who still seem unwilling to go down that path. Why, I wonder? Sally -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Watkinson <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 09:04:11 +0000 Joe You misunderstand me and perhaps both of us. In my case I was providing history, Because of the work of people like Sally and of course Ann Okerson there has been a great deal of convergence in the drafting of clauses and the clauses which contracts contain. At least that is my impression. Others may correct. There are companies (alas) where the corporate lawyers or (even worse) the legal people they bring in from outside do ignore the consensus that has developed in various areas. There is no need to invent new restrictions or permissions. It just adds to cost. Following models save money. It is pity some people do not seem to realise this. Anthony -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Esposito <[log in to unmask]> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:41:20 -0500 Oh, gosh, Anthony and Sally, what romantics you are! You want the good old days when you could work in simpler ways, when you might actually know the name of the person who acquired what you published. But it's a different world today, with large aggregations of publications being sold to large aggregations of libraries. It's terribly impersonal, with no prospect of turning back the wheels of time outside the pages of a science fiction novel. We all hate these obnoxious contracts, and perhaps the lawyers who draft them as well, but in a time of such ferment about trading terms and intellectual property, the contract is that momentary stay against confusion that we require to go about our business. No one likes these things, but we need them. Joe Esposito