From: Danny Kingsley <[log in to unmask]> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 08:17:31 +1000 <More cross posting. I’m not quite as cross as before> Hello, Yesterday Rick Anderson wrote our discussion on this issue up into a post on the Scholarly Kitchen: "They Know We Know They Know: Does Sci-Hub Affect Library Subscriptions?" https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/2019/07/03/they-know-we-know-they-know-does-sci-hub-affect-library-subscriptions/ Because of the time difference it was published overnight for me, so my response is number 46, and therefore buried. To give it some clearer air, I am sending it out here. ****************************************** Hi all, I would like to point out that the original reason why I started this discussion has been lost somewhat in the diversion to an argument about SciHub. The point I was making was that publishers use the "green open access = cancellation" argument to justify embargoes on author's accepted manuscripts deposited to institutional repositories. Embargoes cause a huge amount of extra work for libraries who (despite the implications inherent in some of the SciHub arguments that they rely on the use of pirated material to make budgetary decision) work within the law and abide by these publisher requirements. My argument is there is no real justification for embargoes. Having authors accepted manuscripts in institutional repositories do not, in any way, shape or form, affect subscription decisions. Publishers are far more concerned about SciHub and ResearchGate - as the swift deflection of the discussion to these on Liblicense attests. Neither SciHub nor ResearchGate observe embargoes. In the case of SciHub the material being made available is exclusively the Version of Record, and that is also the majority of material in ResearchGate. *I am asking for a moratorium on embargoes on author's accepted manuscripts.* Let's call it and just get rid of them. Academic libraries worldwide (who are, after all the primary customers of academic publishers) will be extremely grateful. ******************** I am not saying there are not really important issues and discussions we need to have about ResearchGate and SciHub. But it is irritating that the expensive and problematic (for libraries) embargo issue is being ignored in the process. I wonder if the THE even have a clue this discussion is going on as a result of their original story? Danny Dr Danny Kingsley Scholarly Communication Consultant e: [log in to unmask] m: +61 (0)480 115 937 t:@dannykay68 o: 0000-0002-3636-5939